Jeffrey Lewis
Welcome, everyone. I am Jeff Lewis.

Tim Kowal
And I'm Tim Kowal. Kowal and I are certified appellate specialists, and as uncertified podcast hosts, we try to bring our audience of trial and appellate attorneys some legal news and perspectives they can use in their practice. If you find this podcast helpful, please recommend it to a colleague.

Jeffrey Lewis
Yeah, if you find it helpful, also give us a positive rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our show.

Tim Kowal
okay jeff imagine this scenario you're driving down the ⁓ the street in your brand new car the check engine light comes on do you call the mechanic or do you call our guests Michelle Fonseca Kamana michelle is a founder of his full attorney of the west coast lemons a pc she's a lemon law attorney and it could ⁓ it's a consumer law firm focused on california lemon lawn representing vehicle owners across southern california

Michelle has recovered more than $14 million for clients at last count. And she also mentors aspiring law firm owners nationwide on launching practices and using social media as a modern marketing tool. We'll talk about how Michelle started her firm right at the eve of the pandemic. And she has spoken on ⁓ these topics at industry events and platforms, including Clio's Building Successful Law Firm series.

The legal talk network podcast news solo women in trial travel summit in the Clio Cloud Conference, and now she finally puts the crown jewel in with their installment on the California Parallel podcast, welcome to the said podcast, Michelle Fonseca

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Thanks for having me. What an intro.

Tim Kowal
Well, we're so pleased to have you here. Well, tell us the answer to my otherwise, I guess it just would be a rhetorical question, but what do you do as a lemon law attorney? Both Jeff and I, as appellate specialists, are niche attorneys. You are also a niche attorney in consumer law and specifically lemon law. What do you know? What have you learned as a lemon law attorney?

⁓ that other general practitioners who otherwise you understand the basics of law and contract law and negligence law, that is still completely foreign to them in the lemon law specific context

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
It's a great question. So to boil it down, really what I do is I help people that have defective cars get out of their cars and get their money back. So in essence, that's what I do. And I'm passionate about this area of law, because realistically, who has taught us how to buy a car or what these warranties mean, or how to talk to a car dealership? You know, men and women, you know, minorities alike.

We don't get taught that in school. You're lucky if you can call your dad and say, dad, I'm buying a new car. What do I do? What do I say? So by doing this for the last almost decade now, I've gotten to learn all of the scams the dealerships try to pull, all the scams the manufacturers try to pull, all of the most common defects.

and patterns of defects in cars and different brands. And I've gotten to do a lot with educating consumers and helping them in their lemon law cases get their money back and get into a more reliable vehicle.

Tim Kowal
What does the Lemon Law actually do, and other consumer laws do to help level the playing field? You work in an asymmetric litigation space where you're representing poor consumers who are already probably in debt because of the investment they've made in their new car. The last thing they were prepared to do is to hire a big attorney to go up against the multi-billion dollar auto industries and litigate Lemon Law suits against them. What kind of tools does

Do the lemon laws provide your clients as consumers against these big guys?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Absolutely. So one of the best parts about the song Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, which is the lemon law California, is the fact that there's a one-way fee shifting provision. So that means that if my clients are successful, they don't have to pay me a dime; I get all of my attorney's fees and costs paid directly from the manufacturer of their vehicle. So that is huge for car owners that are having car problems because they can not only get completely free consultations if they even think they have a case.

If and when they do have a case, they get completely free legal representation. So that's across the board. All lemon law attorneys in the state of California, we get paid by the manufacturer. We don't have to charge anything out of pocket to our customers.

Tim Kowal
Well, that must be a big consolation to ⁓ your clients who come in. Are they aware of all this when they are first talking to you or are they coming into you just totally frightened and out of sorts?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, a lot of them are completely, you know, that's one of the most common questions we get is how do attorneys' fees work? A lot of them are just so desperate. They just need some answers, some kind of help. So it's one of my favorite parts of consultations, where at the end I'm like, by the way, you're never gonna have to pay me anything. I get all of my fees and costs directly from the manufacturer, and that just lets them take a deep breath and let them know, look at the legal system, at least in this situation, really has their back.

Tim Kowal
Tell me, before we dive in deeper, let's back up and tell me a little bit more about your background, in were you a consumer rights lawyer even before you developed this niche into lemon law? Tell us about your path to the law and specifically path to lemon law.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
yeah. So I was one of those people had no clue I was going to be an attorney in college. So I was just trying to find my way and took an internship at the Santa Barbara County Probation Office, believe it or not, interviewing people accused of crimes. And so I would write reports as to whether they should be released on their own recognizance or not. And I found that I loved storytelling already, but I wanted to take it one step further and be an

advocate for people instead of just writing reports, I wanted to be the one next to them, advocating for them. So I had that Elle Woods legally blonde moment where I was like, I think I'm gonna go to law school. And I did I went into it thinking I was going to go into criminal defense actually interned for the public defender's office in San Diego for a few years went into private practice at another firm in Fresno doing criminal defense before finally shifting to lemon law, which has been

Just a much better fit for me. I think my favorite part is I never have to turn anyone away because they can't afford my services. They're always going to be able to hire me and I'm never going to have to turn them away due to financial reasons. I can truly help anyone that has a case.

Tim Kowal
When you started your law firm, was in, I think, early 2020, correct?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, three weeks before the pandemic hit, I was like, could not have had, you know, better timing or worse timing, you know, depending on how you look at it, because it was quite an adventure for sure.

Tim Kowal
Well, yeah, give us the before and after. At the time the pandemic hit, and you're less than a month into just starting your new law firm, what was your reaction then, and what is your reaction now with hindsight?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Oh my gosh, I thought I made the worst mistake of my life. So I had been preparing to launch, and I had been working for another lemon law attorney. When I decided to go out on my own. He was much older, I never knew when he was going to retire or not. So I figured, okay, I need to make sure my future is protected. So I launched officially February of 2020. I didn't know a soul in the legal industry. You know, I wasn't in provisors back then most of my other bosses didn't

encourage us to go out and meet other people or be a Rainmaker. So I figured, okay, when I start, then I will go out and do all the networking things and get my name out there. Joke's on me, essentially, because I had three weeks of that, and then the world shut down. So there was no in-person networking, there was no way for me to get in front of other lawyers to be their referral partner or even clients. So

I ended up basically throwing a Hail Mary, started doing these videos on Instagram and social media that were terrible back then. Especially if you scroll back, I'm like, if you know me now, you know what I do now. Back then, it was horrible. It was like YouTube style. You know, I was in a little corner. I didn't know the proper framing or the lighting. And it was just, you know, five minutes worth of me talking about lemon loss. So not exactly what we see now with, you know, quick attention scrolling. So

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
I had to exactly but it forced me to get uncomfortable because my bank account was going down when I was running solely from my own savings. You know, I didn't have anyone else funding me. So that was my Hail Mary. I started doing these videos, and it worked, and that was actually how I started. You know, my first networking I got to meet attorneys all over the country, not just California, and build relationships with them.

Tim Kowal
Yeah, we're all contributing to our children's ADHD.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Get clients from Instagram and TikTok. And then before I knew it, I had a practice, I had clients, and I hadn't spent a dime on marketing. And so that was really how I survived 2020. And it helped me transition into the future in teaching other attorneys how to use social media to market their businesses because I never thought I could be that rainmaker. That taught me that anyone, regardless of whether you're an introvert extrovert,

You can do this in a very cost-effective manner.

Tim Kowal
Yeah, I shared that perspective a little bit too, that the pandemic and the sudden and chaotic shift that everyone had to make from traditional types of networking and law firm management to suddenly a digital environment and digital networking, Zoom networking and TikTok and Instagram and YouTube video marketing.

This was a feast for the tech-forward attorneys. All those tech-forward attorneys who were kind of stuck in the traditional world of having to just get in the room and rub elbows with people suddenly had a huge advantage if we were embracing this online marketing, it sounds like. So in hindsight, what do you think? Do you think that you'd be in the same place if it were business as usual ⁓ as of circa January 2020?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Absolutely not, because even the few networking events I went to, I bombed like I was so nervous. I felt so out of place. You know that imposter syndrome was very strong at the beginning because I was 30 years old at the time, you know, walking into these rooms with all these established law firm owners. I I didn't feel like I belonged, and even just getting my name out there. You know, my name is Michelle Fonseca Kamana

I could barely get through that without forgetting to breathe. So I was like, I would have been a complete train wreck in traditional, you know, networking ways. I ended up finding my voice by virtue of being on social media. And that actually transitioned to me now doing a ton of public speaking things that 2020 me from February, who wouldn't have believed you.

Tim Kowal
Yeah, it becomes self-fulfilling. Once you find your confidence in your voice and your platform, all of a sudden it builds this persona that I am an attorney who knows what she's talking about. And then the prophecy comes true because your own self-estimation becomes who you are, becomes your authenticity, and becomes your credibility and your competency. So it's all kind of a cycle. And so it sounds like you've found that.

So you really turned, my gosh, I'm gonna do a terrible pun here. You turned the lemons into lemonade.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
yeah, yeah. Embracing the brand. ⁓

Jeffrey Lewis
Nicely done, nicely done, Tim. And by the way, the bright yellow trademark suits I see you at every meeting don't hurt in terms of your marketing. It's fantastic.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I know I have a lot of fun with the clothing I wear. And that was another transition from starting my own practice. No one's telling me how to dress up. So this is how I feel the most confident is in bright suits, especially yellow suits, lemon stuff. It's part of the whole brand. And I love that side of it.

Tim Kowal
Well, that's right. got to tap into people's attention spans and short memories and they'll see that trademark bright yellow blazer and remember the lemon law attorney. Okay, we've got one of those here. I know where to send my lemon law cases. So how do you let's let's turn back into the nitty-gritty practice and what is different about lemon law cases? How do you evaluate what is a good solid case?

and what types of lessons have you drawn out of your lemon law niche that would be useful to general practitioners?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Absolutely. So the lemon law has gone through a ton of changes recently like when I started lemon law to where it is now it is completely different and I think a lot of the reason for that is is twofold first We've had some big Supreme Court cases come down that have really hurt us The second thing is that we actually had one of the first major legislative changes to the lemon law is

pretty much since it started and that just happened last year. So practitioners, we've been going through a lot recently. So it's really changed. But the first part with the Supreme Court case, Rodriguez versus FCA, it completely gutted used car lemon law. And it's really, really disheartening to see because even in looking at oral argument from that case, the justices just

don't understand what today's consumers are going through.

Jeffrey Lewis
Yeah, I suspect a lot of those folks, I don't know them personally, but lot of folks on the Supreme Court aren't buyers of used cars. And this law or this body of law is really designed to protect the kinds of folks who are buying used cars more than the kind of folks who are buying a brand new Tesla, right?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Exactly, exactly. And it used to work that way. And it used to work that way beautifully. It wasn't unfair to the manufacturers because essentially the way pre Rodriguez the way it worked was you could file on a used car case against the manufacturer of the car because the manufacturer is the warrant or the one providing the warranty like your basic three year 36,000 mile warranty, the five year 60,000 mile powertrain that's coming from the manufacturer or the distributor depending on what car brand you have. So

If you had a used car, but you were taking it in to the manufacturer's authorized dealerships for repairs, and the dealerships are saying, yeah, this is a problem that's covered under our warranty, regardless of whether it's a used car or not, it's a warranty repair, it's a warranty issue. You build your case that way, get your four or so repairs for your check engine light, you have a case, you sue the manufacturer, you can go through your lemon law, repurchase a replacement.

and you get out of the car. But what the Rodriguez case did was they drew a line on the sand and basically said, there's a chain of custody issue with respect to used cars. So unless it is a certified pre-owned vehicle that has a basically new certified pre-owned warranty coming from the manufacturer distributor, it's not fair to hold the manufacturer or distributor accountable.

under old Rodriguez, we used to file on used car cases all the time and it wasn't unfair. The manufacturers really didn't complain about it much. It was normal. But now this line has been drawn in the sand where, it's not fair for these manufacturers, these billion dollar companies.

who are agreeing they're covering the repairs under their warranty. They're paying for the repairs, but they're saying now after Rodriguez, it's a step too far to hold them accountable for lemon law remedies if they can't fix a car within a reasonable time. And it's been really sad because so many car owners have been left without any remedies against the manufacturer. You still have remedies against the dealership, which is what the Rodriguez court ended up saying like, just go after the dealership.

not knowing these dealerships are probably the biggest scammers of people. People don't know what they're reading or signing. You know, they're selling these used cars as is, which means, ⁓ you know, whatever happens, you're on your own. People don't know what that means. Or even if they do provide you with a warranty, it's like 30 days or a thousand miles. Of course, your engine's going to blow on day 31 after they did whatever they did to it. And then you're out of luck. So

Tim Kowal
Hehehehe

Jeffrey Lewis
Yeah.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
It's been really discouraging having to turn away a lot of those cases because a few years ago it would have been a completely legitimate case. Now post Rodriguez, a lot of people are just stuck with these cars that are basically a sunken investment.

Jeffrey Lewis
before Rodriguez, and I guess before the pandemic, my anecdotal experience when I would go listen to a civil docket in person, you know, not through Zoom, was that a good chunk of any given judge's caseload are lemon law cases. Have you seen a decrease since Rodriguez and not just your practice, but like the burden on courts in terms of the total number of filings?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
It's increased. so it's actually, it's done the opposite. And so that's fun thing that's been going on. A lot of the bigger personal injury firms have now gotten into lemon loss. So a lot of people are diversifying. There's a lot of stuff going on politically as well with personal injury cases right now with Uber and all of that and B cap initiatives. So that has really played a part in breaking the system. You know, I think

Jeffrey Lewis
wow.

Hmm.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
What 2014, 2015, we probably had 4,500 lemon law cases. Yeah, 2015, we had 4,500 lemon law cases. By 2023, we had 22,655. That probably went up to like 30,000 in the last year. So now my experience going into court is most judges hate lemon law attorneys and most case management conferences, you're already getting scolded just for being there.

and not settling cases and all that. it's, really.

Jeffrey Lewis
Well, yeah, well, a judge's defense is, my experience when I view these dockets, I see a lot of lemon law lawyers coming in unprepared. They don't know the facts of the case. They don't even know what kind of car it is or what defect it is. They just want their trial date and an order to go to mediation. And if they come across the wrong kind of judge who says, yeah, tell me about this case, they get, it's like running into a buzzsaw. It's not fun to watch. Yeah.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, no, no, it's horrible. And it's just it's the mills where they're just volume firms, and they're having trouble keeping up, and it just makes us all look at as a whole, unfortunately.

Jeffrey Lewis
Yeah. How do you distinguish yourself from those big firms that are coming into the space to keep a marketing edge and keep your practice growing?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, for us, it's always been quality over quantity. We've never wanted to grow too far to where we're going to compromise customer service. So we have over 105 star reviews. That's probably one of the things I'm most proud of is our customer service experience. So we make sure our communication with a client is constant. They're never going to wonder, oh, when am I ever going to hear from my attorney? How do I get in touch with my attorney? They have direct access to me and my associate whenever they need anything.

And so that's been helpful from a customer perspective, how we keep clients and clients come to us by virtue of just our five-star Google reviews. But on the other side of it with referrals, we get the case results. I'm honestly starting to switch over to wanting to go to in-person to court more because I had to do that. I had a case that was about to go to trial. And I just realized, the judges, when you're on Zoom court,

maybe not as friendly, but when you're in person, you build those relationships again, and it's how it used to be. And so I think that's gonna be a new strategy for us moving forward to distinguish ourselves, because realistically, the courts don't see us as often as the mills, because we have good relationships with opposing counsel, we get cases settled, and even in cases that you end up being litigated close to trial,

Jeffrey Lewis
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
We're very professional, we don't overdo our billing, we're very laser focused on whatever motions, if any we file. So the courts do end up seeing that but volume wise, they don't see us as often. So I think showing up in court in person is going to help us further show these judges look, we're not like the other guys, we're not a male, we're actually here because we care about this client.

Tim Kowal
I love what you said about client communications because that's something that I've been working on in my own firm. We're all litigators here and as litigators, you cannot guarantee results. So there are only certain things that are within your control to provide and good communication with the client is one of those things that is totally within our control. So I always consider it a failure when we get an email from a client that says, what happened at the hearing yesterday?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah.

Tim Kowal
saying it, we should be immediately

responding, telling the client right after the hearing, here's exactly what happened so you don't have to wonder about it a day or two days or a week later. So constant communication before the client has to ask for it, I think is what's gonna get you the gold star. So it sounds like you've mastered that. How do you make sure that your team is providing that information? Have you cracked that code?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
So that's one of our core values for the firm. So effective communication, unparalleled customer service. That's something that's instilled in every single employee we have from their first interview through every team meeting, all of that. So it's something that we definitely check, we monitor, we make sure everyone is held to the same high standard when it comes to effective client communication, making sure we're closing the loop.

You know, when we receive an email, when we receive a document, we confirm receipt, we talk about next steps. So no one's ever left wondering because being on the flip side of hiring attorneys, I've seen what it's like to not have that, you know, crystal clear customer service forward experience. And so I've tried to tailor that and instill that in my team as much as possible.

Tim Kowal
Tell us some of the, what are the most important things that are specific to lemon law that make the difference in a lemon law case? And then relatedly, what are some things that are just important, that are just general, you know, good trial lawyer skills or good litigator skills that are gonna make the difference? So what are things that are specific to lemon law that change the outcomes of your cases? And then what just general skills that are applicable to all trial attorneys do you advise everyone to focus on?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Absolutely. From the lemon law perspective, you need to be very, very clear on what the best type of evidence is. What I see a lot of times falling apart is that clients think the facts are one way in their minds and then we get the documents and the documents don't say what they think they say. For that, a lot of it just goes back to client education on the forefront to undo this

perception of dealers that they're on your side, they have your best interest or heart, they don't. You have to go into that prepared to be your own advocate. And I actually just had a client the other day where she said, my car shut down on the freeway, but they didn't write it up on the repair order. So it's like it never happened. And I see that time and time again. So it's just making sure you have all of your documentation ready, you have your paper trail because

As we know as litigators, our case is only as strong as our evidence. So having that firm foundation of evidence, making sure everything is documented, if you are able to take a photo or a video of a defect, you know, for example, check engine lights, sometimes they come on and off, you want to take a picture of that while it's on, because lo and behold, when you get to the dealership, it might be off and then the dealership says, it's off, there's no issue there. But if you can prove, hey, this keeps happening, or my car won't start,

anything you can get documentation of, it's only going to supplement and help your case. So I think that's really made the difference between the good cases and the great cases is having

Tim Kowal
You gotta make sure to build your record before the case even comes to you, it sounds like.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Exactly. Yeah, we won't file until all of our ducks are in a row. And a lot of the work that we do on intake is building people's cases up most of our clients. They don't come to us with their case ready on a silver platter. We have to do a lot of coaching and working with them over several months just to even get it ready. But that work on the forefront that ends up paying off in the long run. So I always tell my clients, be patient because it's gonna make things go much, much faster when we get to litigation. Because if you file on a case that's not ready, it's just gonna get dragged out. And the other side knows that. So it's a matter of being prepared. And then the other thing is the lemon law changed last year.

Now there are actually penalties. I can get sanctioned if I don't have all the evidence ready to go within 60 days of the defendant's answer. So it is even more crucial to be ready to go have your ducks in a row because if you get to that point and your client is dragging on getting you a payment history from their lender or their registration, guess who gets sanctioned? The attorney.

Tim Kowal
What kinds of, we talked about the Rodriguez case that really put a damper on getting relief in the used car space. Where are the remedies, where do see the remedies coming from for that? How do consumer lawyers and lemon law attorneys want to try to fill that gap? Is it legislatively or are you looking for ⁓ certain judicial decisions that might be, you good candidates to take up on review in the California Supreme Court.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, I mean, ideally we can have a Supreme Court decision undo Rodriguez, but I think it's a long shot at this point. I think the case law has consistently been very anti-consumer recently, not just with the Rodriguez case, but in other cases. So I think it's going to be really hard to do anything case law-wise, legislatively.

It was a huge feat just to get AB 1755 and SB 26 through in 2024-2025. I don't see the legislature touching Lemon Law for the foreseeable future because that was just a huge auction item and it's whatever was done was done. I think it's going to be a while before we can get any new legislation up.

Tim Kowal
So we're just working with what we've got for the foreseeable future.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, just try to do what we can with what we have.

Tim Kowal
Yeah.

Jeffrey Lewis
Hey, Michelle, Tim and I in our practices with lot of briefs, a lot of writing, AI is everywhere for good and evil in terms of impacts benefiting the firm in terms of allowing access to justice, allowing people who couldn't normally afford us to hire us, but also lawyers behaving badly and getting sanctioned left and right. Have you seen AI creeping at all into your practice area and is it a force for good, evil or a little bit of both?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
think it's always a little bit of both. It depends on the user, really. But I do see it helping a lot. So what we're trying to do is trying to find different platforms that can take what they're already doing with a lot of personal injury cases, for example, the medical record summaries, and trying to transition that into doing repair order summaries. So I've tested some of these platforms out. They tend to kind of glitch out on, you know,

car repair order so far, they don't like them. But I definitely think it's something that they're going to be able to evolve into. So I'm really excited. I'm working with a few different companies to see what they can do for us. But I think that's going to make it so much faster for people to even know if they have a case because right now on intake, we do a lot of work on intake for free. So we look at everyone's, you know, documents, repair orders, purchase contract, we run the numbers, we do all that.

not even knowing if it's gonna be a case or not. So being able to use AI to help streamline that process is going to allow us to help even more people. So I'm really excited about that future of AI.

Tim Kowal
You said that car repair orders are difficult for AI to parse and read correctly. Is that because they're forms? Are they handwritten? are they just... Any insight why they're difficult for AI to parse?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Mm-hmm.

don't know exactly. The other issue is each car manufacturer has its own way of doing repair orders. So it's never going to be this consistent thing where it's one size fits all. RV repair orders are an absolute train wreck normally to read. So I'm not surprised the AI has a lot of issues with the RV repair orders. But yeah, sometimes we get some little

you know, motorcycle dealerships that are handwriting stuff. That's a nightmare to figure out. Okay, what was the mileage? What was the days in and out? So I

Tim Kowal
Well, the reason I ask is, Jeff knows that I have a diabolical mind, and so I'm always thinking that if AI has trouble reading repair orders, I wonder, you know, that probably redounds to the dealers and the manufacturers. They're probably telling them, yeah, use this very clunky form and handwrite it. That way the lawyers are never gonna be able to process it efficiently.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, some of them may be true because I'm like it's like doctors writing it's horrible

Jeffrey Lewis
Who hurt you, Tim?

Tim Kowal
Yeah, well, yeah, that's unfortunate. I wonder if there's a way. I mean, when you are reviewing them, it's probably it's it's pre filing is a pre complaint when you at the time you need to process it because you could probably get digital versions later, maybe through discovery.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
So most of them do have digital versions now at this point. So as long as you know what to look for, which at this point I've seen so many, I'm like, okay, I can figure out any type of record. But the AI tends to be a little weird about, you know, the different boxes it needs to pull information from. But I don't think it's too far off.

Tim Kowal
Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit, as we start to wind down here, I wanted to hear a little bit about your ⁓ mentorship. You enjoy working with ⁓ young and up and coming attorneys. What has been your experience with doing that? What do you like about that? And do you have any insights about what maybe the profession is under teaching or under emphasizing with new litigators?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Yeah, no, it's been something that I grew into a lot from social media and Instagram. So by virtue of sharing my story, so I don't just share, you know, lemon law tips. I've actually taken everyone on the journey of growing my firm from 2020 running it out of you know, the guest room of my house to we recently got our own office space late last year. So thank you. So it's been

Jeffrey Lewis
Congrats.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Really fun to get to share that with everyone. But what I didn't realize was that it was actually going to inspire and encourage, especially a lot of women. Because when I was coming up through, you know, law school, and even my first couple years of practice, I didn't see anyone that looked like me having their own law firm. So I didn't even think it was a possibility. Like, I didn't even know I could dream of that. So to then go through this process myself, knowing I'm naturally an introvert, I had no money, you know, I was self-funded, I didn't have a trust fund or a rich husband, you know, it was me figuring this out. And I figured it out. And so I've had so many people throughout the years reach out to me and say, Hey, you were one of the key people that gave me the courage to start my own firm and

That has been just the best blessing of this whole journey is just knowing that me putting myself out there, betting on myself, not only helped me and my clients and my team, but it's helped other people help their clients. And it's just been this kind of giant amalgamation of just good people wanting to do good work for good people.

Tim Kowal
What are young attorneys interested in these days? feel like in the last couple of years, I've crossed over into like fuddy-duddy and I don't understand kids these days. Since you are working with younger attorneys, what is in their heads? What's their vision of the law?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
They're a lot more tech-savvy and social media savvy. So I think that's really going to give them a leg up to a lot of the older generation that has a lot more reluctant to embrace technology and embrace the internet and social media because they're coming in, they're making a splash. You know, they're coming out straight out of law school and building these networks and building these referral partners and clients that

You know, 20 years ago, that was not that was not happening. And now they're at the forefront of it with their own personal brand business brands. They're very, very smart. I think it was just giving them a little bit of encouragement, like you can do this. And then once they're off and running, like they're going to the moon and it's it's beautiful to see.

Tim Kowal
Okay, final question. I've actually got three questions so you can pick any one or more of them to answer. Best advice you've ever received about lawyering? One habit that has meaningfully improved your practice or your go-to coffee order.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Let's go with the best advice. So at my first job, my boss told me your superpower in this industry is the fact that you are not jaded by it. And so that perspective is really carried through me because the older I get, you know, sometimes I do get a little jaded. But just keeping an open mind and truly believing that you have the power to make an impact not just on your clients' lives, but on this profession as a whole.

has been one of the most powerful lessons that I've learned and have kept with me throughout my career so far.

Tim Kowal
And what is the impression that you want to have on the law? As we talked about before, you can't guarantee results. So what is it that you want to be remembered for?

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
that attorneys can be good people. You know, you see all the billboard attorneys, attorneys, generally, we have a bad rep, you know, we have a bad stereotype that we're greedy, we don't care about anyone but ourselves. My hope is to be able to show people that attorneys can be someone that are approachable. They're just like you. They want to help genuinely. And so I never want anyone to be too afraid to reach out to an attorney.

Because we can be scary and intimidating. I want to just be the approachable face and show people, okay, not just for women, younger women, for Latina women, you know, we can be attorneys too, and we're here to really serve our community.

Tim Kowal
Well, I think you've got the approachable face going for you. My fiercely bearded co-host and I maybe have a little bit of lagging behind. But Michelle Fonseca Kamana, thank you so much for joining us. I'm sure that you will continue to reap much success in this post-pandemic world, whether or not it's pandemic or not. You have arrived, and I'm sure you will continue being a force in the lemon lawn consumer rights space. So thank you again for joining us. ⁓ Jeff, that's gonna wrap us up.

This episode, if you have suggestions for future episodes, guests or topics, please email us at info@CalPodcast.com. In our upcoming episodes, look for tips on how to lay the groundwork for an appeal when preparing for trial.

Jeffrey Lewis
See you next time.

Michelle Fonseca-Kamana
Thanks.

Tim Kowal
Thanks, Michelle.